VNC and Windows 95

[s***@agipuk.agip.it]

Hi Dan,
Yes I have a number of W95 PC which have VNC installed as a service
(installed via the VNC Administrative Tools menu) and once the password was
set on the first reboot I can access these machines signon screens with no
problem. The only problem that I am having is the slow response, these are
the same spec as some of the NT machines but screen updates are very slow.
It must be something to do with the Win95 system and I was just hoping that
someone out there would have some tuning tips.

Regards
Steve





***@co.livingston.ny.us on 07/27/2000 07:04:39 PM

To: ***@agipuk.agip.it
cc:

Subject: VNC and Windows 95


Hi Steve,
I saw your update out on the VNC mailing list, and I was
wondering if I could ask...are you able to connect to a Windows 95
workstation while it is at the signon screen (ie. when no user is
signed on yet)?? I don't know if you saw my updates on this
subject, but I can't seem to get it to work, and I don't think there are
too many users who have a combined WinNT/Win9x setup.
If you have gotten it to work successfully, maybe you
can give me some pointers. I've setup the Win95 machines
exactly like the WinNT boxes (installed VNC registry settings,
run VNC as a service, etc), but cannot connect a WinNT viewer
to a Win95 server. (WinNT-to-WinNT works fine).

Thanks,
Dan Bielaski
***@co.livingston.ny.us
Livingston County DSS
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[D***@co.livingston.ny.us]

Steve,
Thanks - I appreciate the response. I, too, installed the VNC
service on the Win95 machine using the "Administrative Tools" menu,
and set the password after rebooting the workstation. I have also
tried connecting to the Win95 server using both the VNC viewer
(trying both the host name and the explicit IP address & port #)
and the browser-based Java viewer, but can't connect while the
PC is not signed on. I am able to PING the PC successfully.
I'm guessing there is something on the Win95 side of things
which is preventing the VNC service from getting started after bootup.
Do you have the PC setup to logon to a Win-NT domain? or workgroup?
How do you connect to the Win95 server...from Win-NT? using VNC
viewer or a browser? As you can tell, I'm scraping for any clues
which may help.

Thanks,
Dan Bielaski

P.S. If I can get the Win95 connection working, I'd be glad to compare
connection speed performance with you!




***@agip
uk.agip.it To: ***@co.livingston.ny.us,
vnc-***@uk.research.att.com
07/28/00 06:08 cc:
AM Subject: Re: VNC and Windows 95






Hi Dan,
Yes I have a number of W95 PC which have VNC installed as a service
(installed via the VNC Administrative Tools menu) and once the password was
set on the first reboot I can access these machines signon screens with no
problem. The only problem that I am having is the slow response, these are
the same spec as some of the NT machines but screen updates are very slow.
It must be something to do with the Win95 system and I was just hoping that
someone out there would have some tuning tips.

Regards
Steve





***@co.livingston.ny.us on 07/27/2000 07:04:39 PM

To: ***@agipuk.agip.it
cc:

Subject: VNC and Windows 95


Hi Steve,
I saw your update out on the VNC mailing list, and I was
wondering if I could ask...are you able to connect to a Windows 95
workstation while it is at the signon screen (ie. when no user is
signed on yet)?? I don't know if you saw my updates on this
subject, but I can't seem to get it to work, and I don't think there are
too many users who have a combined WinNT/Win9x setup.
If you have gotten it to work successfully, maybe you
can give me some pointers. I've setup the Win95 machines
exactly like the WinNT boxes (installed VNC registry settings,
run VNC as a service, etc), but cannot connect a WinNT viewer
to a Win95 server. (WinNT-to-WinNT works fine).

Thanks,
Dan Bielaski
***@co.livingston.ny.us
Livingston County DSS
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[Anson Ringenoldus]

>Steve,
> Thanks - I appreciate the response. I, too, installed the VNC
>service on the Win95 machine using the "Administrative Tools" menu,
>and set the password after rebooting the workstation. I have also
>tried connecting to the Win95 server using both the VNC viewer
>(trying both the host name and the explicit IP address & port #)
>and the browser-based Java viewer, but can't connect while the
>PC is not signed on. I am able to PING the PC successfully.
> I'm guessing there is something on the Win95 side of things
>which is preventing the VNC service from getting started after bootup.
>Do you have the PC setup to logon to a Win-NT domain? or workgroup?
>How do you connect to the Win95 server...from Win-NT? using VNC
>viewer or a browser? As you can tell, I'm scraping for any clues
>which may help.
Strange, it works at most WIn95 and Win98 PC's I have at work.
I can connect without a problem from a Mac (MacOS 9.04), Linux
(RedHat 6.2) and WinNT ws 4.0.
Are you trying with <hostname>:0 or <hostname>:5900 ?
The last one doesn't work.
Mvgr,
Anson
--
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ICQ : 20264676 ***@kip.sateh.com
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[D***@co.livingston.ny.us]

Yes, it definitely is strange. I have tried <hostname>,
<hostname:0>, and <pc.ip.address:0>, but without
any success. Can you connect when the Win95 PC
is at the MS Networking logon screen? As I mentioned,
in my previous appends, I can connect *after* someone
has signed on, but not when the PC is at the logon screen.

Dan Bielaski
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[Jonathan Morton]

>Yes, it definitely is strange. I have tried <hostname>,
><hostname:0>, and <pc.ip.address:0>, but without
>any success. Can you connect when the Win95 PC
>is at the MS Networking logon screen? As I mentioned,
>in my previous appends, I can connect *after* someone
>has signed on, but not when the PC is at the logon screen.

You need to set up the Default User settings with a password. Look in the
Start Menu under VNC -> Administration Tools.

--------------------------------------------------------------
from: Jonathan "Chromatix" Morton
mail: ***@cyberspace.org (not for attachments)
uni-mail: ***@lancaster.ac.uk

The key to knowledge is not to rely on people to teach you it.

Get VNC Server for Macintosh from http://chromatix.autistics.org/vnc/

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[D***@co.livingston.ny.us]

Yes - I did configure the settings (Port number, password) and
also installed the default registry settings & installed the WinVNC
service, just as I had done on the Win-NT platform. (Please
refer to the discussion thread titled "Cannot connect to
Windows 95 VNC server".)

Dan Bielaski
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[HELP! Small Business Solutions]

Gentlemen,

I'm not sure of the inner workings of VNC nor am I a Win95 programming
genius but I assume VNC is a 32-bit app which must be run in protected mode
for Win95.

Some snippets from the Windows 95 Resource Kit manual:

pp. 139 on 'Shared Installations' -- "... the first access to the network
must occur in real mode. For shared installations that use a Windows 95
protected-mode network client, Microsoft real-mode networking (NET.EXE) is
used for the first network connection, even for connecting to a NetWare
network." <some sentences omitted> "Real mode versions of NetBEUI and
IPX/SPX-compatible protocols are built into NET.EXE. Real-mode networking
includes only the basic redirector, there is no support for mailslots or
named pipes. Microsoft TCP/IP cannot be used until after the system loads
and switches to protected mode."

pp. 258 on 'Starting the Network During System Startup' -- "If your
computer uses any real-mode components for the client, protocol, or network
adapter, then you must include commands to start the network in
AUTOEXEC.BAT or a batch file that is called from AUTOEXEC.BAT."

This is what it means to me (of course, I could be very mistaken, as
usual). If VNC is a 32-bit protected mode app, it cannot be loaded until
the processor is switched to protected mode and the protected mode portion
of the operating system is loaded regardless if it is a service or started
from the command shell or startup folder. I'm assuming that the startup
sequence is the same both for a shared installation (client-server type)
and for a standalone or peer-to-peer network (the Resource Kit manual is
not specific), then it make sense that the protected mode portion be loaded
after a user logs in for the first time. This way the correct
services/apps/protocols/etc. can be loaded for the configuration associated
with that user. Also, if only the basic redirector is loaded prior to
switching to protected mode, then all your network services (TCP/IP
especially) are not available to you.

I'm assuming Microsoft made some changes in the startup sequence since I
haven't noticed any Win 98/NTWS users chime in with this problem.

So what is the fix? As far as I can tell, you would have to load a
real-mode stack and any other required components in AUTOEXEC.BAT so that
they start on initial bootup. Then I'm guessing VNC should be able to see
the login screen. The downside is that these real-mode drivers are _not_
removed from memory once protected-mode networking components are loaded.
So why doesn't this affect the display on a reboot? I'm guessing that the
protected-mode drivers are not completely unloaded on reboot since they
successfully loaded on initial boot. Don't know for sure, I can't find
anything in the Resource Kit.

I really don't have time to test my theories but maybe someone else would.

FWIW, hope this helps at least clarify some things.

Regards,

Ed Schaperjahn
HELP! Small Business Solutions

================================

At 09:13 PM 7/29/00 +0200, you wrote:
>>Steve,
>> Thanks - I appreciate the response. I, too, installed the VNC
>>service on the Win95 machine using the "Administrative Tools" menu,
>>and set the password after rebooting the workstation. I have also
>>tried connecting to the Win95 server using both the VNC viewer
>>(trying both the host name and the explicit IP address & port #)
>>and the browser-based Java viewer, but can't connect while the
>>PC is not signed on. I am able to PING the PC successfully.
>> I'm guessing there is something on the Win95 side of things
>>which is preventing the VNC service from getting started after bootup.
>>Do you have the PC setup to logon to a Win-NT domain? or workgroup?
>>How do you connect to the Win95 server...from Win-NT? using VNC
>>viewer or a browser? As you can tell, I'm scraping for any clues
>>which may help.

>Strange, it works at most WIn95 and Win98 PC's I have at work.
>I can connect without a problem from a Mac (MacOS 9.04), Linux
>(RedHat 6.2) and WinNT ws 4.0.
>Are you trying with <hostname>:0 or <hostname>:5900 ?
>The last one doesn't work.

>Mvgr,
>Anson

<snipped for brevity
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[HELP! Small Business Solutions]

Gentlemen,

I'm not sure of the inner workings of VNC nor am I a Win95 programming
genius but I assume VNC is a 32-bit app which must be run in protected mode
for Win95.

Some snippets from the Windows 95 Resource Kit manual:

pp. 139 on 'Shared Installations' -- "... the first access to the network
must occur in real mode. For shared installations that use a Windows 95
protected-mode network client, Microsoft real-mode networking (NET.EXE) is
used for the first network connection, even for connecting to a NetWare
network." <some sentences omitted> "Real mode versions of NetBEUI and
IPX/SPX-compatible protocols are built into NET.EXE. Real-mode networking
includes only the basic redirector, there is no support for mailslots or
named pipes. Microsoft TCP/IP cannot be used until after the system loads
and switches to protected mode."

pp. 258 on 'Starting the Network During System Startup' -- "If your
computer uses any real-mode components for the client, protocol, or network
adapter, then you must include commands to start the network in
AUTOEXEC.BAT or a batch file that is called from AUTOEXEC.BAT."

This is what it means to me (of course, I could be very mistaken, as
usual). If VNC is a 32-bit protected mode app, it cannot be loaded until
the processor is switched to protected mode and the protected mode portion
of the operating system is loaded regardless if it is a service or started
from the command shell or startup folder. I'm assuming that the startup
sequence is the same both for a shared installation (client-server type)
and for a standalone or peer-to-peer network (the Resource Kit manual is
not specific), then it make sense that the protected mode portion be loaded
after a user logs in for the first time. This way the correct
services/apps/protocols/etc. can be loaded for the configuration associated
with that user. Also, if only the basic redirector is loaded prior to
switching to protected mode, then all your network services (TCP/IP
especially) are not available to you.

I'm assuming Microsoft made some changes in the startup sequence since I
haven't noticed any Win 98/NTWS users chime in with this problem.

So what is the fix? As far as I can tell, you would have to load a
real-mode stack and any other required components in AUTOEXEC.BAT so that
they start on initial bootup. Then I'm guessing VNC should be able to see
the login screen. The downside is that these real-mode drivers are _not_
removed from memory once protected-mode networking components are loaded.
So why doesn't this affect the display on a reboot? I'm guessing that the
protected-mode drivers are not completely unloaded on reboot since they
successfully loaded on initial boot. Don't know for sure, I can't find
anything in the Resource Kit.

I really don't have time to test my theories but maybe someone else would.

FWIW, hope this helps at least clarify some things.

Regards,

Ed Schaperjahn
HELP! Small Business Solutions

================================

At 09:13 PM 7/29/00 +0200, you wrote:
>>Steve,
>> Thanks - I appreciate the response. I, too, installed the VNC
>>service on the Win95 machine using the "Administrative Tools" menu,
>>and set the password after rebooting the workstation. I have also
>>tried connecting to the Win95 server using both the VNC viewer
>>(trying both the host name and the explicit IP address & port #)
>>and the browser-based Java viewer, but can't connect while the
>>PC is not signed on. I am able to PING the PC successfully.
>> I'm guessing there is something on the Win95 side of things
>>which is preventing the VNC service from getting started after bootup.
>>Do you have the PC setup to logon to a Win-NT domain? or workgroup?
>>How do you connect to the Win95 server...from Win-NT? using VNC
>>viewer or a browser? As you can tell, I'm scraping for any clues
>>which may help.

>Strange, it works at most WIn95 and Win98 PC's I have at work.
>I can connect without a problem from a Mac (MacOS 9.04), Linux
>(RedHat 6.2) and WinNT ws 4.0.
>Are you trying with <hostname>:0 or <hostname>:5900 ?
>The last one doesn't work.

>Mvgr,
>Anson

<snipped for brevity


+==========================================+
| HELP! Small Business Solutions |
| Technology for tomorrow's small business |
| |
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[HELP! Small Business Solutions]

At 01:35 PM 8/2/00 +0100, you wrote:
>>So what is the fix? As far as I can tell, you would have to load a
>>real-mode stack and any other required components in AUTOEXEC.BAT so that
>>they start on initial bootup. Then I'm guessing VNC should be able to see
>>the login screen.
>
>I wasn't aware that it wasn't seeing it (Windoze is definitely not my
>primary OS, and this is the first mention of the problem I remember
>seeing). I'll try it on my own installation - Win95 OSR2, under the
>Virtual PC emulator.
>--------------------------------------------------------------
>from: Jonathan "Chromatix" Morton

I saw the problem mentioned in a few messages earlier this week. Someone
described not being able to connect/see the other computer until the first
login is made. One other mentioned that he could see it on reboot but not
on initial login also. I'm assuming (you know where that gets you) they
were trying to login using VNC to get that computer up and running. That's
why I did a little quick research. If I'm wrong, I apologize and please
correct me.

If I'm close, maybe it will explain it to those that are having the
problem. Then they would have to figure out how to get past the initial
login without having to go all the to the remote computer.

Regards and thanks for the reply,

Ed Schaperjahn
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[Jonathan Morton]

>I'm not sure of the inner workings of VNC nor am I a Win95 programming
>genius but I assume VNC is a 32-bit app which must be run in protected mode
>for Win95.

Yup, most likely.

>This is what it means to me (of course, I could be very mistaken, as
>usual). If VNC is a 32-bit protected mode app, it cannot be loaded until
>the processor is switched to protected mode and the protected mode portion
>of the operating system is loaded regardless if it is a service or started
>from the command shell or startup folder.

Yes, but I don't see any reason why "services" should be loaded before this
has happened. After all, most "services" would be 32-bit protected-mode in
any case. Stuff in the Startup folder certainly isn't loaded until Windows
has fully started.

>So what is the fix? As far as I can tell, you would have to load a
>real-mode stack and any other required components in AUTOEXEC.BAT so that
>they start on initial bootup. Then I'm guessing VNC should be able to see
>the login screen.

I wasn't aware that it wasn't seeing it (Windoze is definitely not my
primary OS, and this is the first mention of the problem I remember
seeing). I'll try it on my own installation - Win95 OSR2, under the
Virtual PC emulator.

--------------------------------------------------------------
from: Jonathan "Chromatix" Morton
mail: ***@cyberspace.org (not for attachments)
uni-mail: ***@lancaster.ac.uk

The key to knowledge is not to rely on people to teach you it.

Get VNC Server for Macintosh from http://chromatix.autistics.org/vnc/

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[Herbst, Allen]

I'm not sure of this is any help, but I run WinVNC 3.3.3r1 and 3.3.3r7 on
all sorts of Windows 95 machines, and I've never had the problem you are
describing. I am able to log in to my Win95 machines almost as soon as they
boot into Windows.

The install process I follow:

1 - run the install program to install VNC
2 - reboot computer
3 - run start>programs>VNC>WinVNC (App Mode)
4 - when it asks me for a password, I type in "password"
5 - I then goto start>run, and type "winvnc -defaultsettings"
6 - when it asks me for a password (again), I type in my real password
7 - run start>programs>VNC>Administrative Tools>Install WinVNC Service
8 - run regedit, and add DWORD values for the AllowProperties=0 and
AllowShutdown=0
a - It's on the web page somewhere, but the values I change are located in
HKLM>Software>ORL>WinVNC3>Default
9 - remove the VNC folder from the start menu

This works great for me, and like I said, I probably have every version of
Win95 floating around here. FWIW, I use the same procedure for Win95,
Win98, and WinNT (altho I have to have local admin rights in NT).

Hope this helps someone!

Allen Herbst
Network Administrator
Gourmet Award Foods Southeast
4006 Airport Rd.
Plant City, FL 33567
[phone] x4121


> -----Original Message-----
> From: HELP! Small Business Solutions [mailto:***@helpsbs.com]
> Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2000 1:06 AM
> To: vnc-***@uk.research.att.com
> Subject: Re: VNC and Windows 95
>
>
> At 01:35 PM 8/2/00 +0100, you wrote:
> >>So what is the fix? As far as I can tell, you would have to load a
> >>real-mode stack and any other required components in
> AUTOEXEC.BAT so that
> >>they start on initial bootup. Then I'm guessing VNC should
> be able to see
> >>the login screen.
> >
> >I wasn't aware that it wasn't seeing it (Windoze is definitely not my
> >primary OS, and this is the first mention of the problem I remember
> >seeing). I'll try it on my own installation - Win95 OSR2, under the
> >Virtual PC emulator.
> >--------------------------------------------------------------
> >from: Jonathan "Chromatix" Morton
>
> I saw the problem mentioned in a few messages earlier this
> week. Someone
> described not being able to connect/see the other computer
> until the first
> login is made. One other mentioned that he could see it on
> reboot but not
> on initial login also. I'm assuming (you know where that gets
> you) they
> were trying to login using VNC to get that computer up and
> running. That's
> why I did a little quick research. If I'm wrong, I apologize
> and please
> correct me.
>
> If I'm close, maybe it will explain it to those that are having the
> problem. Then they would have to figure out how to get past
> the initial
> login without having to go all the to the remote computer.
>
> Regards and thanks for the reply,
>
> Ed Schaperjahn
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, send a message with the line: unsubscribe vnc-list
> to ***@uk.research.att.com
> See also: http://www.uk.research.att.com/vnc/intouch.html
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[Cybertime Tech Support]

I have used the basic method you gave for installing VNC. The only
difference is that I have two pre-made registry files for locking and
securing VNC. I use the secure one on all the workstations and servers I
put it on, and the lock on just the workstations.

I just installed 3.3.3r7 on another machine to test this, then rebooted the
machine. It came up to the network login prompt, and I left it there. Then
I went to another machine and logged in. VNC worked fine. I also did a Log
Off [Username] just to see what happened. Oddly enough, VNC stayed logged
on. I thought it would get kicked out. Obviously, a machine restart does
kick me out.

> Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 11:43:04 -0400
> From: "Herbst, Allen" <***@GourmetAward.com>
> Subject: RE: VNC and Windows 95
>
> I'm not sure of this is any help, but I run WinVNC 3.3.3r1 and 3.3.3r7 on
> all sorts of Windows 95 machines, and I've never had the problem you are
> describing. I am able to log in to my Win95 machines almost as soon as
they
> boot into Windows.

...much deleted...

> This works great for me, and like I said, I probably have every version of
> Win95 floating around here. FWIW, I use the same procedure for Win95,
> Win98, and WinNT (altho I have to have local admin rights in NT).
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[D***@co.livingston.ny.us]

I found the source of my Windows 95 connectivity problem, and thought
I would post it in case anyone else stumbles across it, and can't resolve
it by what was suggested in the forum thus far. For some reason, the
VNC installations on the Win95 machines did *not* make the "Default"
and "User" settings to be the same. Once I discovered this, and manually
changed the "Default" setting to accept socket connections, I was
able to successfully connect to the Win95 machine as soon as it
booted to the Microsoft Networking signon screen.

Dan Bielaski
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